Naming rules

The Rules

I. Willem van Theylingen (Wilhelmus de Theyling), vermeld 1174,1 wellicht een zoon van Floris de Zwarte, tr. N.N., (verm.) dr. van Gerard van Theylingen (Gherardus de Theyling), de laatste vermeld 1143

Kinderen: 1. Floris (?), jong overl. 2. Gerard (?), jong overl. 3. Willem van Theylingen, heer van Theylingen, vermeld 1198-1243, overl. 5 maart 1244. Hieruit het geslacht Van Theylingen. 4. Dirk van Theylingen, volgt II. 5. Gerard van Theylingen (Gerard Dode), vermeld 1223, 1227,3 en (1233).4 6. Simon van Theylingen, leenman van het Sticht (Utrecht), sneuvelde te Ane bij Coevorden 1227.5 Hieruit het (jongere) geslacht Van Benthem. 7. Machteld (van Theylingen), vermeld 1250, tr. Herper van Foreest, vermeld 1230.6 Hieruit het geslacht Van Foreest

Our W#149, and his kids, according to BdK in "Stamreeks van der Duyn" So vBenthem and vForeest sprote from him too. The former ended up with the castle, the latter...

Strict naming, so children marked with (?) are assumed to have existed under those rules, even if they haveen't been found. What were the rules again:

1. father's father
2. mother's father, #124 GvT ... so that basically like the ancient Greek did it, and like it remained until Napoleon abolished baptism (he didn't, different story)
3. self, to get a long line of reincarnations of the lord, as we so often see.
4. father's father's brother? Not grandfather, that was F2vH, greatgrandfather then? Dirk is the family's leading given name.
5. reincarnation of 2. So Gerard (2) would have died, but only after Dirk (4) had been born, and the 5th son was named to fill the empty spot.
6. ... great-great-grandfather? If one'd follow BI/Sicco legend, Simon->G1->G2->H->W. But in this scenario W#149 was vH and married Gdr vT, so that would be his wives gggfather then?
7. Machteld. Would that be the female side of 3, after his wive? Of 4, mothers fathers sister?

As for the rules: So that boils down to 1) paternal grandfather 2) maternal grandfather 3) father For daughters that would translate to -mother. 4) and 5) arent so clear, might be uncles, grandfathers...

As for the kids: 1 and 2 were never found to have existed. But (2) reincarnated, and must have live until after the birth of (4). That would mean Floris (1) was still alive when Simon (6) was born. It is likely there were some daughters in between 6 sons. If Simon would have been the 9th child (so 3 daughters), and they'd come 2 years apart, Floris would have made it past 16, an only wasn't reincarnated because no more sons were born after his death. If he'd had 6 sisters, he would almost be marriage material.

That G came after W and D must be assumed by importance. We see the brothers appearing together in Oorkonden from around 1200. G gets delt Heemskerk. G would have been 2nd son, and thus older, thus more prominent, so he must have reincarnated, seems the assumption. So G (2) would have died around 8 yo. One could also argue that G was a basterd. Then he could have been older, (5) could take the place of (2), but could not inherit title or rechte lenen.

And Machteld, was she the only daughter? The first? Then FdZ would have bedded a Machteld?

Lets check the rules: it goes on with the brother Drossaart, vB...

1. Willem, heer van Brederode, vermeld 1244 tot 1285, ridder, overl. 3 juni 1285, tr. Hildegonde van Voorne, dr. van Hendrik, heer van Voorne, en Mabelia van Cysoing. 2. Jan (?), jong overl. 3. Dirk van Brederode, vermeld 1251 en 1268, ridder. 4. Floris van Brederode, volgt III. 5. Aleidis van Brederode, overl. 26 juni (ca. 1262), tr. 1e (verm.) Hendrik van Naaldwijk, tr. 2e ca. 1250 Gerard, kastelein van Keizersweerd.

Rules 1, 2, 3 identical, Jan is assumed to have existed. He must have lived until after the birth of Floris. Rule 4 would then be grandfather, FdZ. Or W#149 would have had a brother Floris. Or he was named after DvB's older brother (1). There likely were daughters in between, no reincarnations. And Aleidis, was she the only daughter? The first? Then the Gerardsdr would have been Aleidis? Rule 4 still isn't clear. No rule 5.

Does that hold on III in that tree? Only 3 sons, no reincarnations, so no 4th and 5th rules. Based on 2) the unknown wife of FvB would be Jansdr then. The girl on 4) would, if 1st daughter, been after Floris's mother, Alverade. She was mother of a Machteld, but that could have been after fathers mother.

Application to FdZ, W#149, W#202 and DWvT

BdK told us the name Willem was introduced into the vHolland line by Ada van Schotland. She married F3vH in 1162, he adopted her CoA, and they had a 2nd or later son Willem, that would have been... 6 years after marriage, 4th child. FdZ had died a generation earlier, and can't have named his child after that Willem. So it must have come from mothers side then. So FdZ bedded Machteld Willemsdr?

The tree according to BdK first

 D5vH x O
     |
F2vH x PvS               SvT
     |                   /?
   FdZ            GvT#124?
    |          /       \
W#149 x N Gdr vT       HvT#142
   /         \
W#202        DvB

FdZ

FdZ would have named his first son F, fathers father. So he had more then one son? And W#149 would then have been the 2nd son? Or was W#149 illegitmate, FdZ and Machteld weren't married, so her son would be named after mothers father? FdZ died 1133. W#149 must have been born <1134 then. That's 22 years earlier then I had him before. He'd align with Hugo vT, his wife's brother, that suits the story.

W#149

For W#149 we stick to BdK for now. He would have been 38 when H#142 died, and vT fell to the sister of Hugo, who apparently hadn't any surviving offspring by then. W#149 would have married Aleidis? Gerardsdr before 1172 then. She is said to have died young, or soon after that, or not being the mother of any of his children. Unclear based on what. He could have married her by 1156. Or have had another wife from 1156-1171. I now doubt Arend was his son, see De heren van Rijswijk.

If have children of him 1175-1204. That was made to fit a DoB of 1156, and the brothers W&D being young adults when they enter the stage in oorkonden around 1205-1225 (was it?). If his DoB is to be <1134 he would have fahtered his children aged 41-70. Possible maybe, if he had a younger wife. He was attributed several, Agnies van Bentheim, Maria van Castricum, Margarete van Lippe, but BdK doesn't go there.

W#202

I have AvL for a wife, and she has father W, grandfather Arnold.

Then according to the rules his sons would have been 1) W 2) W' 3) W 4) F 5) A Three sons Willem wouldn't be practical. Willem, Bill and Willempie? Would they have just skipped the 2nd and 3rd?

To get a Dirk, Simon, Floris, Willem as in NL26...

We'd need 6) Dirk, after father's brother. Could be an adaptation of rule 4 or 5. 7) Simon, would be very hard to fit a Simon in based on the rules, unless we get to greatgrandfathers. 8) Floris, who'd be the reincarnation of (4) 9) For Dirk to be the oldest we need to reincarnate 1,2,3 into a younger Willem.

That would be 9 sons, 7 if we have 1,2,3 as a single one. There would have likely been at least 4 daughters too, making it 11 kids, would have taken 20 years.

DW

On with Dirk then... his wife was Gertrudis, her father likely a Jan, for he had sons W and Jan. Daughters Machteld, Christina, Willem, Ada, and N.N. vHagestein. Rules would dicatate:

1) Agnes 2) Gertrudis' mother 3) Gertrudis 4) Agnes 5) Gertrudis' grandmother.

So... vHagestein would have to be a Agnes. Gertrudis mother a Machteld, Christina or Ada? And sons being sparse, they named a daughter after father's father?