De heren van Teijlingen

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My greatgrandfather was a grandson of Jeanette van Tol, who in a long line Van Tol, descends from Floris van Tol, son of Floris van Teijlingen, who built het Huis van Tol, giving his descendants their name. There are different stories about his lineage, and when questions rose, I decided to dive in a bit.

Sources

Primary source would be the transcriptions in Oorkonden van Holland en Zeeland, Oorkonden in short. Some might be fakes according to de Nederlandsche Leeuw. Main other source is te Nederlandse Leeuw article from 1926, NL26 in short. It reference several other studies/sources which I have not read, have noted some. Combined it with some data from Batavia Illustrata 1685, BI in short, an earlier study, without sources.

Possible other sources

Several were mentioned in NL26, I did not search, find or read any of those, just for reference/further study.

He invented a great looking stamreeks, but is not to be trusted (lightly), he also found how they descended through Pharamund from Priam of Troy and in the end of Adam and Eve. Reminds me of Snorri Sturluson, who told us how all Vikings descended of Odin, son of Thor, who was actually Troianus and a descendant of Priam. Medieval historians. Anyway. Stamreeks Teijlingen volgens Joannes a Leydis.gif

John Ooms John names severals modern sources, that name sources, etc.


Wikipedia names sources

  • Moerman, I.W.L. De ruïne van Teylingen, Deel XXVI uit de serie Nederlandse Kastelen, Nederlandse Kastelenstichting, ANWB, 1976
  • Hartog, E. den & H. Koopmanschap Teylingen Bezoekergids, Kastelenstichting Holland en Zeeland, 2004
  • Robert Fruin (1903), Verspreide geschriften. Deel 8. Kritische studiën over geschiedbronnen. Deel 2. Historische schetsen en boekbeoordeelingen. Deel 1 - De jongere tak der Van Teylingens (1898).
  • Coenen, J.M.A. (1996). Graaf en grafelijkheid: een onderzoek naar de graven van Holland en hun omgeving in de dertiende eeuw, proefschrift Utrecht, p. 74-76.
  • Fannee, M. (2014). tlant te Waremunde, een studie over Warmond in de middeleeuwen (1100-1400), Lisse: Druno en Dekker Drukkers, p. 51 e.v., p. 83 e.v.
  • Janse, A. (2009). Ridderschap in Holland, portret van een adellijke elite in de late Middeleeuwen, Adelsgeschiedenis 1, tweede herziene druk, Uitgeverij Verloren, p. 400.

Oorkondenboek van Holland en Zeeland

In Oorkonden I searched for spelling variants: Teilinge, Teylinge, Teilingen, Teylingen, Teijlinge, Teijlingen, Teiling, Teyling, Teilinc, Teylinc, Theylingen, Theylinge, Theilingen, Theijlingen, Theijlinge, Thelingen, Thelinge, The-, Tei- Te- yielded also "te", too many.

No signification relation to time and spellingvariants was observed.

Results, standardized spelling, order by #, dates in d-m-yyyy 

#    - date      name - role
#124 - 7-10-1143 Gerard
#143 - 1162 Hugo - witness
#149 - 3-10-1174 Willem - witness
#177 - 1198 Willem - witness
#182 - 21-8-1200 Willem - witness
#188 - 20-2-1201 Willem - witness
#202 - 1205 Willem and Dirk, brothers
#203 - 1205 Willem - witness
#208 - 21-5-1226 N.N. Thelingen and Dirk Dapifer - sign a treaty
#214 - 1207 Willem - witness
#227 - 1212-1214 Willemn - witness
#229 - 13-1-1213 Willem - witness
#235 - 21-9-1213 Willem - witness
#237 - 23-12-1213 Dirk - witness
#247 - 28-8-1215 Willem - witness
#271 - 7-1220? Willem and Dirk
#281 - 6-1223 Willem - cosigns
#283 - 22-7-1223 Gerard - witness
#321 - 2-5-1230 Dirk - witness
#333 - 1231 Willem - witness
#361 - 8-1-1237 Willem "scilicet" (named, by the name of) van Theilingen.
#380 - 5-6-1241 Willem - witness
#382 - 1241 - Willem - witness, nobilis vir (noble man)
#564 - 18-6-1252 Dirk - witness, and aparently not a ridder/milites

More Oorkonden (van den Bergh, De Fremery 1866)

There is more where that came from: Oorkondenboek van Holland en Zeeland, Volume 1-2, 1866, Laurent Philippe Charles van den Bergh, James De Fremery

Numbers seem the same in the beginning but seem to differ in the end, did not compare and I will use alt#143 to refer to this list: 

#143 - 1162-08-28, graaf Floris III geeft aan Egmond de kerk te Vlaardingen terug, onder de laici: Hugo de Teylingen
#149 - 1174-10-03, getuige voor graaf Floris II: o.a. Wilehums de Theylingen
#177 - 1198, graaf Dirk VII schenkt land te Poeldijk aan zijn kapel in de St Mariakerk te Utrecht, acta sunt hec apud Lis[se], onder de getuigen: Wilhelmus de Teillinga, Arnoldus dapifer meus, Henricus, frater ejus
#182 - 1200-08-21, 188, graaf Dirk VII en zijn vrouw Alyd bevestigen een schenking aan de abdij Rijnsburg van land te Schie, Rijswijk, 's Gravesande en Warmond, door gravin Sophia gedaan; onder de getuigen: Wilhelmus de Teylinge;
#188 - 1201-02-20: zij bevestigen schenking aan het klooster door zijn vader Floris III gedaan, onder de getuigen: Willem de Teiling
#183 - 1200-11-03, verdrag tussen Brabant en Holland, onder de getuigen homines comitis: Wilhelmus de Thelinghe
#202 - 1205, Ada, markgravin van Brandenburg (zuster van Dirk VII) verkoopt aan de kerk te Rijnsburg twee hoeven in Poel, onder de getuigen: Wilhelmus de Teilinge en zijn broer Theodricus (van Brederode)
#214 - 1207, gravin Aleid schrijft over het huwelijk van haar dochter met de graaf van Loon, gesloten in tegenwoordigheid van o.a. Wilhelmus de Teylingen
#227 - 1212-1214, verklaring van graaf Willem over de dijk tussen Bergen en Schoorl, die tijdens het leven van zijn vader gemaakt is; 1e getuige: Wilhelmus de Theilinke;
#229 - 1213-01-13: getuige voor keizer Otto IV te Nijmegen: o.a. Wilhelmus de Thelinge;
#234 - 1213-09-21: Willelmus de Theylingen;
#237 - 1213-12-23: onder de getuigen Theodericus de Theilingen [van Brederode];
#247 - 1215-08-28: 1e en 2e getuige Wilhelmus de Teylinge, Theidricus dapifer (van Brederode)
# 1215 Oppermann: Fontes Egmundenses p 245, Lubbert, abt van Egmond, schenkt aan Dirk, physicus de Aelsmeer en zijn vrouw Ermengardi, 2 hoed tarwe en twee hoed gerst uit zijn tienden in Sassenheim in leen, en nog land in Alesmare, bestemd tot lijftocht voor Ermegarde, uit te reiken in Sasnem in mensura ejusdem ville, per dominum Wilhelmum de Theylingh
# (? I#270 = 1274 and II#270 = 1290) 1217 v.d. Bergh II Nal no12; Bijdr Hist Gen Utrecht 1913 dl 34 p 487; v.d. Bergh I no 270, 277
# (?) 1220-02: getuige voor graaf Willem te Antwerpen: Willelmus de Teiling;
#270 1220-07: Willelmus en Theodericus [van Brederode] de Thelinghe;
# (?) 1222-10: Wilhelmus de Teylinghen en zijn broer Theodericus (van Brederode)
#281 - 1223-06, Maria, weduwe van graaf Willem schenkt 50 £ Holl aan de abdij Rijnsburg, onder de getuigen Wilhelmus de Thelingen;
#283 - 1223-07-22: getuige voor graaf Floris IV, Gerardus de Theilingen;
#287 - 1224-12-06: getuige is o.a. Theodericus de Theylinghe (van Brederode);
#294 - 1226-01-26: beweringen van de graaf onder ede bevestigd door o.a. Wilhelmus de Teylingen;
#298 - 1226-05-21: zegel van Theilingen
#305 1227-04-16: verdrag over Zeeland, onder de getuigen Wilhelmus de Theilinghe en zijn broer Theodericus dapifer (van Brederode);
#(?)331? 1228-11-11 v.d. Bergh II Nal no 14; v.d. Bergh I, Wilhelmus de Teilinc getuige voor de bisschop van Utrecht;
#325 1230-01-14 (1231), Arnoldus, abt van Egmond, ontslaat enige keurmedigen, onder de getuigen: Wilhelmus de Teylingen en zijn broer Theodericus
#321 1230-05-02: Theodericus de Teyling getuige voor graaf Floris IV;
#328 1231-03-30: Th de Teylingen;
#333 1231: Willelmus de Teiling
#(?) 1233-03-01: De Fremery no 70, Ghisekinus uter Liere verkoopt land in de Liere aan de abdij Marienweerd, onder de getuigen Wilhelmus de Teylinc
#344 - 1233-04-20: v.d. Bergh I en II, getuige voor graaf Floris IV o.a. dominus Willelmus de Teylinghen;
#353 - 1235-04-01: Raad W de Teylinghe, Theodoricus de Wassenaer, Jacobus burggraaf van Leiden;
#361 - 1237-01-08: schenking aan de abdij Rijnsburg, zegel o.a. van Wilhelmus de Theylingen;
#380 - 1241-06-05: Wilhelmus de Teilingen;
#382 - 1241: getuige voor Nicolaas van Putten is Wilhelmus de Teylingen;
#397 - 1243-08-17: getuige voor graaf Willem o.a. Wilhemus de Thelinga;
#413 - 1245-11-23: stadsrecht aan Haarlem, onder de getuigen Theodericus de Teilig;
#437 - 1247-05-28: getuige voor bisschop Otto o.a. Wilhelmus de Teylinghe;
#537 - 1251-02-03: getuigen voor graaf Willem: Theodericus de Brederode en Theodericus de Theylinghe; 
#564 - 1252-06-18: Theodoricus de Teylingen;
#II#13 1256-10-15 v.d. Bergh II, idem
#II#26 1257-06-06 v.d. Bergh II, Lubbert, abt van Egmond, geeft zijn monniken enige renten, sigillis virorum nobilium: o.a. Theodericus heer van Theylinghe
#II#47 1258-09-21 v.d. Bergh II, ruil van goederen tussen de abdis van Rijnsburg en Willem van Steenhusen van 10 corenvennen en 5½ akker geestland gelegen tussen Poelgeest en Oestgeest tegen tienden van Wilhelmus in Rijnsburch, die hij van heer Dirk van Teylinge in leen hield; hij wordt weer met de genoemde goederen beleend

Missed quite a few

Assuming that everything from 1205 to 1244 I missed and is about Willem or Dirk/Theoderic would just be W#202 or his brother. No need for additional people. Some notes.

  • 1235 (#353) is interesting for my own familyhistory.
  • 1245 (#413) would be the same as D#564, the son of W#202, same goes for every Dirk up to 1283.
  • 1247 (#437) cannot be W#202, because he died 1244. W#202 had a son Willem, that did not succeed him (but maybe that Willem succeeded his brother Dirk).
  • 1251 (#537), Dirk van Brederode would be Dirk Drossaert, Dirk van Teylingen would be son of W#202.

Still, there should be more source material from 1251 to at least 1284, with rapid successions (there is, v.d. Bergh II).

Even more Oorkonden, van den Bergh/De Fremery, 1873 edition

Even more source material, the 1873 edition (aka v.d. Bergh II), I'll refer as frem#5. In 1282 Dirk, son of W#202 died, was succeeded by his son Willem, who died a few weeks later, in 1283. Because he had no son, the lenen returned to the count.

De Fremery Nal no 3; Bijdr Hist Gen jg 1901 p 264, 265/Reg EL 5 fol 88v, 89 lijst van lenen van Teylingen 1283:

  • frem#5 Didderic heer Symonsz de tiende van Rijswikerbroec, zoals zijn vader hield;
  • frem#9 Wilhelmus filius Theoderici tertiam partem decimae te Hemestede ex parte domini de Thelinghe;
  • frem#42 Florentius frater domini [Wilhelmi] de Telynghe 40 sc de precaria hyemali apud Voerhout;
  • frem#45 Janne zoon van de heer van Teylingen, hield van hem in leen (nu van de graaf): - ½ tiende van Warmond, behalve des papendele, - 27 (72 ?) £ per jaar uit de visserij van Warmond, - de tiende van Coudekerke, die de vrouwe van Thelinghe kocht van Ever van Lisse, - 5 hoet rogge uit de tiende van Hadewartswoude, - het land te Boschuysen, waar de steenoven op staat, 12£ per jaar [in de Boschuizerpolder onder Zoeterwoude], - de tijns te Warmond

According to NL26, in 1283 Dirk, son of W#202 dies, and his son Willem who succeeds, dies weeks after.

Need to do some drawing first: Birth* and death+ are wild guesses, # are first "vermelding", reference. 

       Willem (#149) *1150-+1205
                    |
        Willem (#202) *1175-+1244
      /         /       \         \
Dirk (#562)   Symon     Florens   Willem
*1200-1282   *?-+c1280             *?-+1284
    |              \
Willem (-+1283)     \
                   Dirc
                (*?-+>1305)
                    |
                  Willem

According to NL26 (III B) Symon's son Dirc (III B 1) posseses Teylingen. Had to read several times, but the children of Symon (II 2), son of W#202, are III B 1-4, Dirc, Symon, Willem and Ada

  • frem#5 is about our Dirc at the bottom.
  • frem#9 tells us that Dirc had a son Willem in 1283.
  • frem#42 if also 1283, dominus Willem can only be the son of Dirk that only ruled a few weeks. He did have a brother Florentius (II 3 in NL26).
  • frem#45 Jan would be (III A 2) in NL26, brother of the Willem that only ruled a few weeks.

BI mentions a Sophia Dircsdr van Teilingen that marries Willem van Naaldwijk. His grandfather was Willem Boudijnsz, that would have been the son of (8). Born around 1280, his sons around 1310, grandson 1340, and Sophia ca. 1335, putting Dirc around 1300. Could have been Dirc Symonsz. Wikipedia states she is his niece. Most likely her mother was a Van Naaldwijk then.

Groesbeek collectie

J.W. Groesbeek created a cardsystem from the notes he took when studying documents. He used the same source material, but his notes are valuable as well.

  • 18-9-993, Arnulfus comes peremptus est in bello, sepultus in Egmundensi monasterio; anderen genoemd: zijn vrouw Lutgardis, filia regis Grecorum, Hugo Arnulfi, en Lutgairda dochter van Theodericus et Syfridus Sicco, zijn vrouw Thetburga (after #27 and before #28) [1]
  • 1030<, Sifridus, cognomento Sicco, frater comitis Theoderici IV, dedit sancto Adalberto pro anime sue remedio terram super Gheest, nominatam Northorpe, Smithe, Adgeringelant, Hildebrandislant, Siccurdingeland, 5 fiertelen Lantlosamade, in Ekerslato 12 libras, in Banez [onder Assendelft] 2 libras; door graaf Dirk V op 1083-07-26 bevestigd. Goederenlijst abdij Egmond 1083-1105~: de Gheest in Northorpe 8£ 2 sol; Smithen 17£; Gestichin 10 uncias; Athelhilt 10 uncias; Brocchingelant 7 uncias; Adgeringelant 2£; Magchanchelant 8 uncias; Tiegerdesmade 3 uncias; in Quinque fiertelen 2£ 6 uncias; in Lantlosmade 3£ 6 uncias
  • 5-6-1030, Sifridus Sicco preses, filius Arnulfi et Lutgarde comitisse stierf 5 juni is in het Egmondse klooster begraven, met conjuge Thetburga (after #28 and before #30)
  • #124 7-10-1143, wijding van de kerk te Egmond, aanwezig viris clarissimis o.a. Gerhardus de Teilinc
  • 28-8-1162, getuige voor graaf Floris II: o.a. Wilehums de Theylingen (same time as #143 Hugo)
  • 1167 annales Egmundenses: slag bij Schoorl, ex his nobiles et probi milites corruerunt: o.a. Gerardis dapifer [van Teylingen ?]
  • #149 3-10-1174
  • #177 1198, graaf Dirk VII schenkt land te Poeldijk aan zijn kapel in de St Mariakerk te Utrecht, acta sunt hec apud Lis[se], onder de getuigen: Wilhelmus de Teillinga, Arnoldus dapifer meus, Henricus, frater ejus

A blank of 113 years between 1030 and 1143. 1167 Gerard dapifer, that is after Hugo 1162. BI had a Gerard and a Gerrit, could be two different people.

There is a lot more, also after 1252. Symon is mentioned in 1269. Dirk died before 18-11-1281.

Sicco legend

Dirk Paulszoon wrote about the Sicco-leggend. Johannes a Leydis might have expanded on it. These transcripts, altough they maybe forgeries, confirm more Teijlingers:

Syfridus Sicco x Thetburga lived in 993 and must have been adults. The Sifridus also called Sicco of 1030 is likely the same person, an old man by then (at least 55 if at least 18 in 993), he died june 5 of that year. He is brother of count Theoderic IV. Then #124 and #143 follow.

That could be Dirk IV, graaf van Egmond, altough he only became count in 1039. It is said his father was on pilgrimage that year, it possible his son took care of thing during his absense. His parents were Arnulf x Lutgarde, also mentioned in 993.

That doesn't work though. The only way for Sifridus to be son of Arnulf, brother to Dirk IV, son of Dirk III, would be if Lutgarde married both fathers.

Dirk III though, was son of Arnulf van Gent en Lutgardis van Luxemburg. Dirk III was count in 1030. And he had a son Siegfried van Holland (985 - 1030), die huwde met Thetburga (985 -). Bingo. Someone missed a Dirk then somewhere, because in 1030 they counted 4.

If Willem I descended of this Siegried that would also explain the coat of arms, the same as the graven van Holland, but with a barensteel (John Ooms), indicating a younger branch. At the time of Willem I the house of Holland descents from the older brother Dirk III. More on then Sicconiden-legend with Thetburga. According to that legend, Siegfried and Thetburga had sons Dirk and Simon, Dirk being Dirk Drossaert, and Simon would be first lord of Teylingen. But that was disproved because Dirk Drossaert is first mentioned in 1205 (#202 together with Willem van Teijlingen). Just because it is a different Dirk? No, he was not the father of Dirk Drossaert.

If Siegfried was born in 985 (only 8 when he was first mentioned), his children yould be born... around 1005, succeeding their father in 1030. According to Medieval Lands (2.1.a.ii), only a son Baldric was recorded, but by the age of his burial he must have been of 1 or 2 generations earlier.

Could be Gerard #124, lord of Teylingen in 1043. Maybe also Dirk and Simon. Gerard begat Hugo, who begat Willem, who begat Dirk (Drossaert) and Willem, the latter begat Dirk, Willem, Simon, and Floris, to emphasis his Van Holland descent. On GO Dietz, without naming sources, makes him have a son Simon, Gerard, and Gerrit, apparently following BI.

Johannes a Leydis

Let's look at his work again (as mentioned in NL26). Syfridus x Terburga that died in 1030. We found that. Son Dirk, who was not Dirk Drossaard. A Leydis did not say that, he has Drossaard in the list as well, in the proper time. The earlier Dirk was called lord of Brederode. Couldn't he have been? Haven't seen a Willem mentioned before 1103, nor a record of his death in that year. Haven't seen a Dirk mentioned before 1139, nor a record of his death in that year. Haven't seen a Willem mentioned before 1154, nor a record of his death in that year. Three generations in 51 years? Possible, but pushing it. Might be brothers that succeeded. Floris that died in 1198. W#202 had a son Floris, but he was likely not yet born in 1198, let become a lord and died. Seen no record of him. The Willem that died in 1221 could have been W#143, haven't seen records of his death, but he was brother not father of Dirk Drossaet. That follows. Mweh.

Europäische Stammtafeln

On Graafschap Middeleeuwen I found Margaretha, daughter of Willem van Teylingen en Geertrud, married Giselbert uten Goye. She died 1333. That would be the Willem, son of Dirk, son of W#202. See also Geertruid van Woerden. It gives as source "ES-VIII_1980, D. Schwennicke", and those are the Europäische Stammtafeln. No results in Klosterman. The are not free to read, but I found some clips.

Sometime some text can be made out from the search results, but hard to put it in context: "N van Teylingen Maria uten GOYE", " Eleonora v Teylingen", "Bergerota v Teylingen". That volume 28 might be very interesting is confirmed by the index.

Scenario's

Around 1200 Teylingen and the area around switched hands several times, the land being owned by church, than the lords, back and forth. It was the time where the graven van Holland established themselves, who centuries before that were just a side branch of the graven van Friesland according to Winsemius. So Teylingen might have switched hands several times. From at least 1198 Van Teylingen was very close to Van Holland. According to their coat of arms, seal, they were a younger branch (wapen of Van Holland with a barensteel, see John Ooms). Van Teylingen is usally among the first mentioned as a witness, right after the family. It is unclear how they got their lands, NL26 points out that is why in earlier times an earlier dynastie was invented, that could explain how they descended from Van Holland and/or how the got in possion of their lands.

What we do know is the Loonse Oorlog that started in 1203. Count Dirk VII van Holland died without male heirs, and only his daughter Ada remained. She could not inherit-and-pass-on the countship, as she could the property (zwaardleen vs. spilleleen). Dirk's brother Willem would inherit it, but Dirk's wife Aleid quickly arranged a marriage of Ada with Louis II van Loon. Willem, most likely W#149, sided with Dirk's brother. The conflict ended in 1206, spoils were divided, the brother got Zeeland, and Holland went to Van Loon. De facto, Willem ruled Holland though, and later Louis gave up his claims in return for his wife Ada. How W#149 got through all that we don't know. It seems his sons take the stage not long after that.

That is why NL26 starts with N.N.: "we don't know". We don't. So it wise. BI does go before. Jan van Leiden was not (entirely) proven wrong by then.

Before Willem I

BI has Hugo before Gerard, and some of Van Leiden's list, that are at the least doubtfull. NL26 states #124, #143, #149 could be fakes. NL26 explains that some 19th century authors "invented/needed" a "dynasty of regents" to make Teylingen/Brederode descent from Van Holland. That would make them "lords of", but not family/ancestry.

I choose to go with Oorkonden, assuming there were no fakes, assuming Teylingen was a familiy thing from 1143 on. No proof. Just a hunch. If Gerard and Hugo were grandpa and pa of Willem... Gerard prepared the stage, Hugo helped Van Holland to get in the saddle, Willem and Dirk got everything going for them when they enter the stage. Finish what dad started and take it home! Sounds glorious, and it was, wasn't it?

How many Willems?

If I try to put it al together, trying to "invent" as little people as possible (how many Willems in 1174-1241? Could have been, must have been there?)... ...it get about the same tree as the one in NL26. Talking about I, II and III gets confusing quickly. I need a different nomenclature to distinguish between Willems, lets use the numbers of the Oorkonden they first appeared in. So we start with W#149. He is N.N. in NL26.

The Willem (#149) of 1198, was most likely born before 1180, around 1170 even, possible even 1160, to become first noble mentioned in 1198? Stuff must have happened to get him where he was in 1198. Having established his position, he might have had two adult sons already who he brings into play. If that was the case, and those sons were around 20 in 1205, born in 1185, their father would have been born not later than 1165... then 1205 would be a good time to have them spread their wings. Father established position with Van Holland, and his sons soar from that. So I'd like to call W#202, the brother, son of W#149. It just happens that's what John Ooms writes too, Dirk was born around 1180, W#202 must have been the oldest son.

The Willem from #182 and #188 could be about either, I'd say W#149 was still the main man, and died or took the back seat somwhere between 1201 and 1205. He would have been in his 40's or 50's, not the youngest anymore.

From 1205-1220 they are several time explicitly named as brothers (#202, #208, #271). Why was that important enough to write down? Because they were from the same, well known, important father? I think 1205-1220 the sons take over center stage.

NL26 attributes to Willem Procurator "„dat de eerste, die te Brederode heer was, een broeder van den heer van Teylingen, Dirk Drossaet heette; zijn echtgenoote was vrouw Alveradis, een dochter van den heer van Heusden.". That is our Dirk #202 #271 and his wife, nothing about his brother or father though.

Of course all could have been the same Willem, W#149 and W#202 could have been the same person. But the Willem brother of Dirc died in 1244, would have been over 64 if born before 1180, over 75 is he ware a made man in 1198 that actually shaved. Old, especially for the time, but possible. That Willem that died in 1244 was son of Willem 1198 would fit better.

According to BI, there was another Willem in between. There might have been, not much is said about him. Ignoring the other sons of Hugo, W#149 would have been the one captured "in den Oorlog tegen den Grave van Loon" and would have been married to "Halewijne van Egmont". Could be the dynasty theory speaking. The "in between" Willem does not really fit anything, he'd only be the father of the brothers Willem and Dirc, but he is not needed for that, his father Willem could be that as well, we don't need another Willem. Sources would help.

In De Navorscher 1904, see below, there is also a third in row, after Hugo and before Dirk. First W#149, then W#202, who is supposed to have died in 1236. The Willem of 1236 would be a different Willem, and he dies "before 1257", because Dirk succeeds then (6-6-1257 he is explicitly called heer), but that Dirk appears in 3-2-1251 already (#537). Another Willem is needed to explain #437, but that could be the Willem son of W#202 that dies in 1284.

Willem 2½

So, Willem gets first mentioned in 1174 (W#149). He would be the same as #177, #182, #183, #188. Born around 1156 according to some. Probably a father around 1170-1180, to W#202 and his brother Dirk. W#202 taking over from his dad from 1205 on.

W#202 had at least 4 sons, Dirk, Symon, Florens and Willem, according to NL26. W#202 must have been old enough to be a father around 1205. Most of his sons (Dirk, Symon, Willem) seem to die around 1280-1285, making them very old if born in 1200-1210. Being children of a marriage around 1220-1230 would fit better. That could fit a marriage with Agnes van Lynden is she were born ca 1203. Other sources state that there is discussion about here death being 1203 or 1230. That would leave room for an 'in between Willem' like in BI. W#202 born around 1175, a son W born around 1205, that could be W2½, and him being the father to the sons that die around 1280-1285. It could be that Willem son of #202 was the one in #437. He doesn't seem to succeed Dirk, because after that we see Dirk again, assuming it is the same one as before.

Post Willem

The death of Willem (W#202) 5-3-1244, according to NL26 "25) Zie de 16e eeuwsche kroniekschrijvers Theodericus Paul i (Bijdr . Vad. Gesch . 4e reeks , VIII, bl . 379) en Joannes a Leydis (bij Matthaeus , Analecta , 2e uitg. I , bl . 616). Hij wordt niet vermeld in het Necr. Egm.;" Wife unknown, sons Dirc, who succeeds him, Symon, Florens en Willem. That would have been the Dirk #564.

Then, according to NL26: (II) Dirc first mentioned 1251 (#562 is 1252, might have missed one), ridder, died 19-11-1282. (III A 1) son Willem (grandson of W#202) succeeds but dies 1-1-1283 x Oda van Wassenaer (frem#9, frem#42), no offspring. Easily to confuse him with his nephew. Unclear who succeeded him, his other son Jan (frem#45) would be logical. Jan lived in 1292, knape, esquier. It seems that Teylingen reverted back to the count, and Jan only succeeded partly. That would fit Catharina van Durbuy receiving it from the count. Also [2] Janne des heren sone van Teylinghen points in that direction, he was not lord, only son of the lord.

(III B) Symon's son Dirc (III B 1, frem#5) posseses Teylingen, according to NL26, possibly just the house/castle itself. That would be Simon, brother of Dirc (also grandson of W#202). Jan had no offspring and died 1304, unclear whether he succeeded. Dirc is alive in 1303. If also lord, than also miles. Jan was miles though, and might have succeeded his brother. Symon, maybe not the same, is alive in 1304. He is probably Symon Willemsz, and still alive in 1320. He has an son Dirk in 1327 A Willem "de Gouwe" Willemsz van Teylingen in 1306.

To many footnotes to mention, many sources have been noted already. It continues in a different issue of NL (search).

By 1223 Gerard pops up, 1230 it is Dirk, possibly the brother, 1241 Willem one last time, probably W#202, who died in 1244 according NL26. That is because the book ends, there were other Willems.

Spouses

Margaretha van der Lippe

On GO Chrstina van Brederode is daughter of a Willem van Teylingen and Margaretha van der Lippe. No sources. Born around 1180 she would be sister to brothers Willem and Dirk, so daughter of W#143.

According to the same author, again no sources, her daughter Agnes van Lynden, who follows, would mary W#202 (who was not born, but mentioned the first time in 1198). So W#202 marries his (maybe half)sisters daughter...

She is in the tree of Johannes a Leydis, married to a Willem that died in 1221, most likely W#143.

Agniese van Bentheim

She is mentioned by John Ooms and others, married to W#149. Unknown source. She appears in 1203 as a witness, possibly representing her husband who might have been away on the 4th crusade. She is mother of Dirk, W#202 and Machteld. That Dirk, probably Drossaard, died in 1236 (9b), (1) ca 1174 volgens (112231329) Source: Gens Nostra 1995 bl,249 according to [3]. Issue not found. According to the ToC on p244 is an article D.F. GOUDRIAAN, De boerenfamilie Poes tussen IJ en Meer 244, and the next would be H. VAN FELIUS, 'Van wege zijne majesteit den koning' 257, no entries found in between. That article is a source on HoGenDa, that also mentions source J.C. Kort, Repertorium op de lenen van de hofstede Teilingen 1258-1650; in: Ons Voorgeslacht, jrg. 40 (1985), blz. 718, that mentions -.-1284: Floris, broer van de heer van Teilingen, zoals van Teilingen, LRK 5 fo. 88v, that would be II#42, Florentius frater domini.

Maria van Castricum

First wife of W#149, mother of Gerard van Heemskerck van Teijlingen. Source: Kw.Statenboek Nr IX bl 36 Prometheus Delft According to this parenteel N.N. Gerardsdr maried W#149 in 1199, she might have died in childbirth, because W#149 remarries in 1200 to Agniese.

Agnes van Lynden

A Willem marries to Agnes Willemsdr. van Lijnden some write, born in 1203 according to some (source?). John Ooms writes about an Agnes, second wive after a marriage to the erfdochter van Gerard of W#143, but she is Van Bentheim and 1203 was the year she died.

If W#149 had sons W&D between 1170-1180 mothers death in 1203 would fit well. Her birth in 1203 would make her way too young for W#149. W#202, around 25 in 1205 in my story, would have married by that time, wanting to produce a male heir to succeed him.

Because she would have been the daughter of W#202's sister, she must be (a lot) younger than W#202. About 28 years in my book. Marriage at 12, in 1215, and motherhood at 15 was normal at the time in those circles would have been 1218. Her marriage wouldn't have produced offspring untill around 1220, fitting what Pieter says.

That W#202 did not become a father until 1220 would not fit, it is likely that W#202 was married already in 1205, maybe even had young son Willem already, that would marry Agnes and make W#202 grandfather for the first time around 1220. It is therefor likely Agnes was a second or third marriage, she was not the mother . According to the GO author, Dirk, Simon and Hadewich where hers, born in 1225, 1228 and 1230. But Dirk succeeded him, so he was probably the oldest surviving son at the time. Florens and Willem would not have been sons of an earlier marriage then. According to GO Agnes outlived W#202, making it unlikely there would have been a later spouse.

Gilles Schotel, Abdij van Rijnsburg, 1866 mentions an Agnes van Lijnden, wife of Willem van Teylingen, becoming a nun and 25-11-1211. I assume W#143 died around the time sons W#202 and Dirk Drossaard appeared. His widow could have entered the convent after that, and could have died in 1211. That can't have been a 8yo widow, so she is either a different person, or was not born in 1203, but that contradict the GO statement.

Halewijne van Egmont

According to BI a Willem was married to Halewijne van Egmont, daughter of kwade Wouter van Egmont.

Halewijne van Egmont was married to Arend van Egmond (2d) aka Van Rijswijck aka Van Teijlingen , son of W#149, brother of W#202. She might be the Hadewig van Teijlingen that is a witness in 1203, possibly representing her husband. He might have been away on the 4th crusade.

Geertruid van Woerden

According to BI a Willem was married to Geertruyd van Woerden, daughter of Herman. She is likely the same as the Gheertrudis from NL26.

The Willem that married Geertruyd must be the one that died in 1283, and was possibly a son or a grandson of W#202. If the son was married to Agnes van Lijnden and did not marry twice, the grandson would be more likely, and in accordance with NL26. The wikipage about Kwade Wouter references Jan van Leiden, whom according to NL26 should not be trusted. There have been several Herman van Woerden, if the Willem that married her was the son of the Willem that got children around 1220, she could have been a daughter of Herman V.

She is mentioned by Thomas Salmon in Hedendaagsche historie ... der Vereenigde Nederlanden, 1749. He seems to have written numerous books about numerous countries. This is what his story tells: 

   Herman (V?) van Woerden
          \
      Geertruid van Woerden x Willem van Teilingen
                               |
            Katharina van Teilingen x Aalbert van Voorne
               x Floris V (van Holland?)               \
      /        x Willem van Brederode               Gerard van Voorne
Dirk        x Wolfaart van Borsselen

On Groesbeek I found Katharina van Teijlingen running Voorne around 1327 (source?).

Wikipedia confirms a "possible Dirk" This Albrecht, son of Hendrik, only a marriage to Aleyd van Loon

Salmon also calls her Van Durbuy, and she was Vrouwe van Teilingen, but not daughter of Willem x Geertruid. Her husband links to the first Albrecht, where she is not mentioned.

She must have been his second wive. The Huygens Institute mentions "Na de dood van Albert van Voorne schonk Floris V (1254-1296) aan Catharina de heerlijkheid Teylingen, onder de voorwaarde dat zij deze zou teruggeven indien zij opnieuw trouwde."

So Teylingen a heerlijkheid (an independant lordship), and a gift from Floris. Probably somewhere after Dirk Symonsz the lordship had fallen to the count. But not a daughter of Willem then.

No mention of the marriage with this Willem, no mention of the marriage with this Willem.

Wolfaart married her in 1297. Lover of Floris V. His daughter Heilwig married Katherine's son Gerard van Voorne.

Wikipedia contradicts Geertruid being her mother, that does not rule out Geertruid was married to a Willem.

Floris van Teijlingen van Tol

Let's look at primary sources first.

  • #282 1274 graaf Floris V bevestigt de abdij Leeuwenhorst in haar bezit, presentibus: Theodericus de Thelingen, Clara de Nordeke cum omni familia sua, Florentio de Tolne, Baldwino de Nordeke, Th. De Waremonde; sigilladomini Th. De Theilinge predicti , Symon de Harlem, W. de Brederoede, Johannes Persyn, Arnold de Hemskerke
  • #228 11-1282 no 4) leen van heer Florens van der Tolle: al die scouwinghe van Tedingherbroeke tot 10 sc, en in heer Ghisebrechts land 17£ waardland [buitendijks]; no 120) Jacob en Arnoud, de twee stiefzoons van heer Florens van der Tolne, houden in leen 4 morgen en een huis daarop {Voorburg ?}
  • #228 11-1282 no 174) Hughe de Sluter van Telinghen, in Voorhoute, 12 sc gelds aen manscap {stamvader familie van Toll}
  • frem#46 1283 heer Florens van der Tolne 2½ hoet haver uit de tiende van Rijswijc, nu leen van Holland

There seems to be agreement on Floris being the stamvader of Van Tol. But which one is that Floris?

BI tells us that Floris van Teijlingen was son of Hugo, younger brother to W#149. It mentions Gouthoven called him Hugo by mistake. Groesbeek refers to a Russich Alg. Wapenboek I haven't been able to find, that Van Toll springs from Hugo van Teylingen. According to #174 above, it would be a different Hugo than #143, who lived in 1162. Hughe de Sluter van Teilingen lived 120 years later. It is just a note from Groesbeek that appoints him stamvader, but BI does not have anything more going for it. Let's draw again: 

                       Hugo (#143) *?-+>1162
                       /                   \
       Willem (#149) *1150-+1205            Floris?
                       |                    (BI)
              Willem (#202) *1175-+1244
         /             |       \         \
   Dirk (#437,#562)  Symon     Florens   Willem
      *1200-1282    *?-+c1280            *?-+1284
    /     |       \         \       ?\? 
Willem   Florentius Jan      \        Hughe de Sluter (#228)  
(-+1283) (frem#42) (frem#45)  Dirc           \
                           (*?-+>1305)      Floris? de Tolne?
                                |           (#228, #282, frem#6)
                              Willem

Shall I name them Floris, Florens, Florentius and FdT? That last one is our ancestor for sure, unsure whether he is son of Hughe de Sluter, only a note of Groesbeek. Also hard to say if it is the father Floris van Teijlingen, or the son Floris van Tol.

Father or son

Floris (van Teijlingen van Tol) married N.N. van Poelgeest, and was the first lord/owner of Huis van Tol [4]. He lived around 1250. No sources. If he became Van Tol, he was born Teijlingen and that could explain the double name.

With his wife Van Poelgeest Floris van Teijlingen had Floris I van Tol, who married Marcelia van Rhyn, who begat Gerrit Ramp van Tol and Floris II van Tol x Odilia van Lewen, who begat Floris III van Tol, according to BI. Ons Voorgeslacht 1989 mentions in Oudshoorn: "308. Het goed in het ambacht Oudshoorn, (1405: zijnde 91/2 morgen met tiende, waarvan oude Floris van Tol met nr. 309 de andere helft houdt)." In 1405... if the first Floris lived 1250, Floris I would live 1280, Floris II 1310, Floris III 1340, that would be around Floris V. Haven't looked that far yet.

A slightly different story stells us that the son Floris I van Tol moved into the house that was built by his father-in-law: Geehrlant van Rhijn bouwde hier ongeveer in 1276 een kasteel. Zijn dochter Marcelia huwde met Floris van Tool. Tot 1471 blijft het goed in handen van de familie van Toll, waarna het overgaat aan Jacob Coppier. Deze werd opgevolgd door zijn zoon Hendrick. Deze overlijdt na een val van zijn paard in 1532. They would live untill the generation that could have seen a Floris VII.

That would mean the Floris that lived in 1250 and married Van Poelgeest did not live become "Van Tol", but his son did. If the castle was build in 1276 Floris must have moved in aftwards. He must have lived there by 1282/1283 because he was named Van Tolne in the sources. That makes it higly unlikely #228, #282, frem#6 refer to the father, he would not have been named Van Tolne yet. It is still possible the Floris that became Van Tolne in 1283 already lived in 1250. But he would not have owned Van Tolne, his son would have, through his wife. Maybe the son was born ca 1225, married in 1250, his father-in-law started built in 1276 and died soon after, and he moved in around 55 yo.

Floris brother of W#149

If W#149 was born around 1155, his brother must have been very old to be alive in 1250, even he were a lot younger than his brother. It seems more likely that de Floris that lived in 1250 was either the same Floris as the one in #228, #282, frem#6, or even more likely, his father. Johannes A Leydis mentions a Floris that died 1198, haven't seen him mentioned anywhere else. So Floris could be a brother to W#149, as BI states, born around 1160 or even 1170, but it would be unlikely the he would be the same Floris that fl. 1250. I haven't seen him mentioned anywhere either. Floris could be a son of W#149, but he is ficticious for now. W#202's sons Willem and Dirk are assumed to have been born 1170-1180, and W#149 died 1244. Even when born 1180 he would have been 70 when 'living 1250'.

Florens, son of W#202

According to NL26 W#202 had a son Florens that little was known about. He might be born between 1200-1220, and have lived in 1250 and thus be the same that married Van Poelgeest. He is the most likely to be floruit 1250. If his son was born around 1250, this Florens would have been quite old when he moved into the castle. His grandson Floris II would likely have been born already.

Florentius, son of Dirk and grandson of W#202

frem#42: Lord Dirk that died 1282 had a son Willem that died 1283, and sons Florentius and Jan. Dirk might have been born later than 1200, or he would have been very old. His sons could have been born 1230-1240 or even a little later, Dirk dying old, his soon dying young soon after. Florentius would have "lived" in 1250, but most likely not an adult yet. Tight fit. He might have married Van Poelgeest and begat a Floris that was an adult arond 1280 and moved into Van Tolne.

Floris, son of Hughe de Sluter

If Florentius (frem#42) did not sprout Van Toll, Floris and Florens most likely being to old, where would this Hughe fit in? He would be of about the same generation, maybe a son of one of Dirk's +1282 brothers (Symon, Florens or Willem)?

It all hinges on the castle being built in 1276 by the father-in-law, and there is no source. For now I will asume Floris van Teijlingen, floruit 1250 was a son of W#202. That Floris van Teijlingen might have been the first that lived in the house Van Tolne, if that was built in 1276 by Geehrlant van Rhijn, his son would be the first to live there.

Floris Florisz van Tolne

He would have been the son of Floris van Teijlingen, whatever Floris that might have been. He would have been the lord of Van Tolne, maybe after his father. Everything seems to agree he married Geehrlant's daughter Marcelia.

Putting years to some of the Florissen, to Gheerlant or Van Poelgeest, finding more on Hughe de Sluter van Telinghen, all would help substantiate things. adds Navorscher jg 1904 p 447. A few pages before that, it is about Van Teijlingen and Van Toll. In French. It refers to a previous article in june, likely also 1904.

De Navorscher 1904

I'll refer as NV04.

  • I. Sicco in 1083, brother of Dirk III
  • II. His son Simon, no contemporary source
  • III. Gerrit 1143 (#124)
  • IV. Hugo 1162 (#143)
  • V. Willem 1174 (#149). Father of Dirk and Willem
  • VI. Willem found from 1198 to 1235 (#353). "Must have" died before 1236. A Willem 2.5 then?
  • VII. Willem found 1236-1247. Not sure why Willem after 1235 (#361, #380, #382, #397) is a different person than before. Lives after 1244, assumed dead because of #413 (but Willem lives 1247, #437). "Must have" died before 1257 (II#26) because Dirc is lord.
  • VIII. Dirc, found 3-2-1251. Seems to contradict the previous 1257. Mentioned as ridder first 21-9-1258 (II#47) and last 13-4-1282. Two sons, Willem (IX) and Jan (X), but no Florentius. Willem, found 17-2-1272, 20-11-1276 and 3-5-1283 (not in mij list).
  • XI. Simon son of Willem (VII), brother of Dirk.
  • XII. Dirk son of Simon. Often confused with VIII.

Now the interesting bit (p 436).

  • XIII. Simon, son of Hugo (IV). Would be a brother of W#149. That's a new one. He died on crusade before Coeverden in 8-1237. No kids mentioned.
  • XIV. Floris van Teilingen (de Tolne), son of Willem 1236-1247 (VII). He is the "frater domini".
  • XV. Floris I van Toll, ridder, leenman of Holland and Teijlingen (so that would have to be before the death of Willem son of Dirk). Found 1284-1306. x Marcelia van Rijn.
  • XVI. Dirk van Brederode "de oude", dapifer, brother of Willem (1213, 1215), ridder (1224). Sometimes confused with a Dirk Drossaet "de jonge". They are not the same person because: "a) de oude is already ridder in 1224 (#287), de jonge is baljuw, not yet schildknaap, in 1251 (#537), and schildknaap in 1256 (frem#130), b) de oude died before 1252, was never lord of Teijlingen, because during his live it belonged to his father W(V, #149), brother W(VI, #202) and his nephew W(VI, ?). De jonge succeeds W(VI) and was lord.". x Alveradis van Heusden.

Van Brederode follow.

The Willem that has sons Dirc, Simon and Floris, W#202 in my lineage, but here that Willem had another son Willem, and he was the father of the other three. Could be. He would be mentioned in 1274 as Florentius de Tolne (#282), together with Dirk. Then he is identified with 'Florentius frater domini' from frem#42. Brother of the lord. This author dates it 1280. Dirk was lord then, and son of Willem. In 1280 the brother of the lord would be Dirk a son of W#202 (or his son W 2.5). Dirk died 1282, his son Willem died 1283, and because he had no heir, the lordship return to the count.

The article mentions Melis Stoke, who mentioned Sicco, as stamvader van Teijlingen. He is not convised, because the descendants of Sicco could have made claims, and they didn't. There is no mention that Sicco had a son Simon. There is no mention Simon had a father Sicco. Gerrit is the first found in a chater of 1134 (#124) mentioned by Van Leiden. No proof for Van der Lecke. Falsifications at the time of Pontus Heuterus. He mentions that M. Koenen hypothesized that W#149 might have been a bastard son of Willem I van Holland. The author is not convinced. He does mention: "En 1222 une charte de Floris IV : Parmi les témoins : Willem et son père Theodericus van Teilingen. Pourquoi ne les nomme-t-il pas: fratres mei"?" There was a mention in 1222 I haven't been able to put a number on yet, but there they were brothers. What Dirk had an adult son in 1222 then?

By p447 he described Ponterus Heuterus, who gave 3 sons to Hugo (#143): W(#149), Simon (XIII) and Floris van Teijlingen genaamd Van Toll. That's the same as in BI, and in Russisch Alg. Wapenboek according to Groesbeek. BI and the author both point to Gouthoven, who apparently messed things up, and then Hugo de Sluter, gatekeeper?, of Teilingen enters again, as Groesbeek mentioned, but over 100 years later. Not the same Hugo, and probably not the same Floris. A mistake made by a Van Leeuwen in BI p740? BI followed Heuterus, but made mistakes itself aswell about Hugo and Floris. With Procurator, Ada Simonsdr called Floris her uncle, but that Ada was not a sister of the older Simon so Floris had been as brother to the younger Simon. Dirk Willemsz was their brother. Frater domini. Just like Jan was son of the same lord, Dirk Willemsz.

List of loanes

The source is a list of lenen, that De Fremery dates 1283. If that was before the death of Willem, and Willem was lord... then there could have been confusion about 'frater domini', and one would expect his name would have been given. If it was after the death of Willem, there was no lord anymore, and it doesn't make sense. Just a bit earlier, and Dirk would still have been lord, had been for long, no need to specify his name. One the other hand, the death of Willem, and the returning of the lenen to the counts, was most likely the reason to create the list. The list is partly in Latin, partly in old Dutch. Let's translate.

Reading the list, assuming it is a list and all entries belong together cause style and language seems to differ between entries, I get the impression all the "tennants" have been asked to give an account of their loans, and their replies have been compiled into this list. The list does mention Willem as lord, and is dated to be from the year of death of Willem, that caused those loans to return to the count, and that is also what I read between the lines [#7 "a domino de Thelinghen et hoc jus feodale movetur a comite": to the lord of T, by feudal law moves to the count]. On the other hand, the list names Willems' part, so he cannot be dead yet [#9 Wilhelmus filius Theoderici], and he seems to have succeede his father [#17 tenuerunt a Wilhelmo de Thelinghen]. That would make the lord of Teijlingen not Dirk for sure, he had died weeks/months before that, probable his son Willem. Or had he died too, and is that why the list was compiled, and although his heir was no longer leenheer of the count, he would have been living in the castle. So there would still be a lord of the castle, and thus domini might also refer to the one that had inherited the castle. Most likely Jan, and when he died without children around 1304, Simon, or maybe directly Dirk Simonsz. Confusing, because it is unclear what lord of Teijlingen Florentius is a brother of. So Willem #202, Willem II, could be 2 different persons, II and III, like BI. That would help explain that children of W#202 could have been born around 1200-1210, but seem to die around 1280-1285, making them rather old. I'd say if the list is indeed a list, a compilation of smaller parts of similar date (same couple of weeks), that it seems that at the time, Willem Dirksz was dominus. Then Florentius was son of Dirk to. Florens van der Tolne is also in the list, #46, and unlikely the same person as #42. Florens was already de Tolne in 1174, when Dirk was still lord.

Then Dirk, Symon and Florens were his (2.5 or III) sons. He might or might not have had a son Willem (that died 1284, source?). Florentius could have been son of Willem Dirksz as well, because he was lord in 1283. But then he would have succeeded, and the lenen would not have returned to the count. If at the death of Willem in 1283 the castle went to his Willem's brother Jan, he would have been lord (of the castle, not of the lenen). But Jan died without heirs, and there is nothing that points to Florentius being a brother of lord Jan. Maybe the castle went to Dirk's brother Simon after the death of Willem Dirksz, maybe after the death of Jan. Then Simon might have been lord. Then Florentius would be the same person as Florens, brother of Symon (frater domini). Maybe it skipped Simon entirely, and Dirk Simonsz succeeded/inherited from Jan. But it one of those seem likely, because Dirk Simonsz possesed the castle later on (according to NL26). Maybe his broter got the castle next to it, through his father-in-law (#2 in Lijst der lenen van Teylingen, that seems to confirm the different story under Father and son)

His son Floris is first lord of Toll. Or was his father, lenen #2? The father/son thing again. He was, accoriding to Navorscher ridder. Vassal of Holland and Teijlingen (but that had befallen to the count in 1283). Found 1283-1306, married to Marcelia van Rhyn, daughter of Gheerlant, had a son Floris. All agree on that.

It then continues on Brederode.

Foycken

Florens, son (grandson) of W#202 founded House van Tol. Seems to fit, his brother became lord Van Teijlingen. He also might have had a bastard son Foyke, mentiond 1281-1284. There, Huge die Sluter van Telinghen is suggested to be the first Van Tol. Florens Foykinsz (van Teylingen) is alive in 1316. Foykin had brothers Willem en Gherid in 1316. Or were Willem and Gherids sons of Foyken, and thus brothers?

Agree and disagree

A: NL26 gives W#202 a son Willem, that supposedly died 1284 (source?). NV04 and BI agree on him having a son Willem. D: According to BI and NV04 Dirk is a grandson of W#202 by that son Willem, and not of #202. A: All agree on Simon and Florens being brothers to Dirk. D: Most unclear is Florentius frater domini. Was he a brother of Dirk and thus Florens, son of Willem, but not W#202? Of Willem Dirksz.?

If son of Hughe/Hugo, most likely not #143, what brother was dominus then?

After reading NV04, I say Floris is brother of the last leenheer Willem Dirksz van Teijlingen, also Floris van Tollne, so #228, #282, frem#6, frem#42, altough some may also refer to his son. If Dirk was son of W#202 he died old, maybe up to 80. If grandson he might have been 60. Willem Dirksz died young, and was born around 1230 in the first case, arond 1250 in the latter. The first Floris floruit in 1250, so must have at least been adult by then. Might have been a father already in 1250, so the son Floris could have been married to Marcelia already, and a mention around 1283 could refer to either.

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